Pillars of Eternity Wiki talk:Guidelines/NPC pages

CompleCCity's first thoughts
I have "some differing preferences"? ;o) Differing from what? There was no "guideline" until now…

Okay, disagreements, if you insist on them being.  is a ??? in first appeared in::Pillars of Eternity: The White March - Part I.
 * I reserve the right to do some minor formatting and wording changes after publication.
 * In general all examples, also the code inside   should contain link brackets wherever applicable.
 * I'd change "obviously" in the introduction to "usually".
 * I haven't taken a look into the template now, but often the infobox documentations don't list all available options; updating that itself and list them here is imperative.
 * Change the article introduction to
 * for the following reasons:
 * Using Pagename nd instead of a written out name has the advantage, that it will change automatically with a page move. Of course there are exceptions for this, see further below.
 * I think the kind of character should be a link.
 * I'd change the WM2 appearance to WM1 because I think, it's more likely somebody forgets to remove a possible wrong second "I" than forgetting to add it.


 * Replace

Biography
...

Interaction
...
 * by

Interactions

 * Reasons:
 * The stub template now includes the "section", as well as the whole article, and thus may be placed more than once.
 * If the editor leaves these sections empty, the article is categorized appropriately.
 * For the editor it's no difference if he has to replace "..." or ""
 * For the plural "Interactions": as for "Locations", "Notes", References", etc., this should be plural.

She can initially be found on the square platform in the docks in the south-west part of Ondra's Gift. She can be found inside the lighthouse as the barkeeper, once you've completed her quest.
 * @ Infobox explanation: "It's okay to leave fields empty if you don't know something."
 * Make your example "innkeeper" a link.
 * According to my use of the pagename template, the sentence "The name of the NPC, in bold and right at the start." should be changed to (or similar): "The name of the NPC, bold and right at the start. If you leave it as, it displays the page's name without any possible content in brackets. It may be changed to contain the NPC's title, salutation, or similar things. For an example see Aldhelm, where it was changed to "Master Aldhelm Graeg", to refer to his complete name and title as mentioned in the game, though he is only called "Aldeth".
 * I perhaps disagree with "No need to mention race/class/gender. Those are listed in the infobox, and if they're relevant to the character's story the 'Biography' section below will elaborate on that." I don't see any disadvantage in e.g. rewording "Maerwith is a pirate and the captain of the Red Dream in Pillars of Eternity." to "Maerwith is a wood-elven pirate and the captain of the Red Dream in Pillars of Eternity." And if a class is relevant for the NPC, i.e. if you encounter a rogue whose only role is to be a rogue, then this should also be mentioned here. Additionally I don't see what the race would have to do with the character's biography. But this is no fixed opinion right now…
 * Continuing your reasons would consequently make the location sentence redundant, as this is also mentioned in the infobox.
 * I wouldn't break the locations paragraph, e.g. changing
 * to

She can initially be found on the square platform in the docks in the south-west part of Ondra's Gift. Once you've completed her quest, you will meet her inside the lighthouse as the innkeeper.
 * Several single lines with space between them would clutter the intro section, and the relevant infomation remains still prominent.


 * Your sentence in the biography notes section is another reason to use "" rather than "..."
 * I think it should be allowed to remove the interactions section if there are no interactions available, such as the only thing happening when clicking on an NPC would be some head-up dialog line.
 * I take your paragraph regarding the references as a positive answer to my summary question "say, Ineth2, it's okay to incorporate the header with the template?" ;o)

Additional thoughts (as of 02/16/17):
 * Should we incorporate a quotes section, limited in numbers and reduced to notable ones?
 * Shouldn't – despite of the interactions section and the infobox – some quest section be added, "Involved in the following quests" or something similar?
 * A possible gallery section should be mentioned in the guideline:

"Gallery" section
If you have a decent image/screenshot of the NPC or find any on the wiki that isn't already used in the infobox, an optional gallery section can be placed.

I suppose these things are clarified between you, @Ineth2, and FurloSK, and you think he doesn't disagree. But we should nevertheless involve him in this process.

(Do I really behave this contra here or in your eyes? Or why this wording? It's a community, we have opinions, and we all have them. And it's normal, that guidelines are discussed rather than determined by one person.)

--  -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 11:24, 16 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks for the thorough reply. I didn't mean to make it sound adversarial, it's just that I've seen you do things a bit differently in some of your NPC page edits... :) Unless I missed something, I've incorporated all of your ideas now, except:


 * RE mentioning race/class/gender in the intro sentence: I fear that if we make a habit of adding these, they'll just become filler that make all intro sentences longer without adding relevant info. The location sentence is different, because it explains the location in more detail than the infobox can. On the other hand, I acknowledge that sometimes these thing are a central part of what the character is all about - e.g. in case of Korgrak, being an ogre is half his story. More generally, the race of non-kith talking NPCs is usually central enough to their character/role to warrant a mention, whereas for most kith characters the race is not that notable (though there are exceptions). What would you say to changing that bullet point to:  --Ineth2 (talk) 16:25, 16 February 2017 (UTC)


 * RE adding a quotes section: Sounds like a cool idea. But what would its content look like, and where on the page would it go? Can you add it to some NPC page as an example? --Ineth2 (talk) 16:25, 16 February 2017 (UTC)


 * RE adding a quest section: The infobox already contains a raw list of quests the character is involved in. I think it's best to summarize any quest interactions in the "Interactions" section, together with all other interactions. It can be multiple paragraphs when there's a lot of it, or even sub-sections I suppose, though I prefer to keep things concise here and refer people to the relevant quest pages which have (or should have) in-depth walkthroughs. --Ineth2 (talk) 16:25, 16 February 2017 (UTC)


 * RE not having an empty line after section headings: This is a really minor thing, but I've noticed that whereas I like to add an empty lines before and after every heading/table/list/etc. because it makes it easier to find things when skimming the wiki markup (e.g. section headings stand out instead of looking like they're part of the first paragraph that follows), some other editors seem dead-set on trying to minimize whitespace, and your suggested  sections also only have an empty line before the heading but not after. I'm wondering if there is some downside to having these empty lines that I'm not aware of? You clearly have more wiki experience then me, so please do point it out when I do anything weird or sub-optimal. --Ineth2 (talk) 16:25, 16 February 2017 (UTC)


 * PS: RE "it's okay to incorporate the header with the template?": Yep, I didn't know about that template... :) --Ineth2 (talk) 16:25, 16 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Onyl some short comments for now, will take another look in my tomorrow…
 * Thanks for considering so many of my thoughts! And you added more good stuff, too.
 * A question I wonder about from the beginning: why ignore the backer NPCs? I already thought of making a list of them, and giving them all their own page here.
 * LOL, I didn't notice the "blabla" before taking a look at the differences now. Was funnier before. ;o)
 * I agree to the race/class/gender thing rewording, though I wouldn't judge deviations from the guideline too hard.
 * You've got a point with the quests already being involved in the interactions. I said, "despite it" before, but thinking a bit more about it, you're right.
 * More "tomorrow". -- UserCCCSig.png  -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 18:08, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
 * More "tomorrow". -- UserCCCSig.png  -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 18:08, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

"Biography" vs "Background"
Another thing that should maybe be discussed. I've been going back and forth on what to call that section, but have settled for "Biography" (and as a consequence that's what most NPC pages currently use).

Problems with "Biography":


 * It sounds a bit overblown if the only thing that's know about the NPC is what they're doing right now.
 * It doesn't convey the idea that it only covers the part of character's story before they meet the player character (because the rest is summarized in the "Interactions" section.

Problems with "Background":


 * That word also refers to a character stat with specific allowed values in PoE, and is used that way in the infobox, and it might be weird to use it in a more general sense as a section title.
 * It doesn't as strongly convey the idea that it should also mention what other people the character is related to.

Thought? --Ineth2 (talk) 16:58, 16 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm totally fine with "Biography" for character articles. Makes them more… character as "Background" would do. And yes, there would be some sort of conflict or potential for misunderstanding, with the character attribute of the same name.
 * In general I would allow a larger section here, also regarding the time after meeting the player, if a whole life can be told this way. I don't have a specific example in mind, right now, but I think I've seen such pages here. And why not expanding this, when you could tell the story from someone's birth until their e.g. prematurely ended life through the hands of the Watcher? ;o) If it's well written, that should be okay. Surely it should be different from the interactions section and not read as redundantly. (An example would help here, too. I'll look for something…)
 * Which both would invalidate your "problems" with the term. :o)
 * -- UserCCCSig.png  -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 18:08, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
 * -- UserCCCSig.png  -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 18:08, 16 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I haven't looked through all characters, now, but I still haven't found a suitable example for what I was trying to explain.
 * I think it wouldn't hurt to mention someone's fate, if clear, or someone's evolvement during the game, if it's also clear, shortly in the biography, even if it's explained in more detail in the interactions section. And even if these points depend on players' decisions, there would be options to mention it in short words. Wrote an example, (not so) quick and dirty:


 * Heodan


 * Biography
 * Heodan is the youngest sibling of three, originating from a merchant family in the Aedyr Empire. He is trying to establish his own business in the Dyrwood, and is currently travelling with Odema's caravan.


 * When Glanfathan's raid the caravan during camp, he might be rescued by the Watcher, or fall, but will eventually die in the aftermath of the assault.


 * Interactions
 * Heodan is the first merchant you encounter during your journeys. You might ask about his background, which will give you the first opportunity to establish a personal reputation, and he offers basic equipment, as well as buying items from you at higher prices than merchants later in the game. A short time later, though, his store isn't accessible anymore…


 * He serves as leverage for the Glanfathan Leader to threaten you during the assault on the caravan's camp. He will not die by the raider's hand, but, depending on your choices in dialog, join your party either wounded or with full health. During the following fight, he assists you and Calisca with his rogue abilities. When you try to escape the bîaŵac, one of the opponents recovers and attacks again, and it is your task to decide whether to rescue or to leave Heodan to his fate through a scripted interaction.


 * If you manage to save his life, and he was wounded during the assault, he will ask for a rest in the the ruins of Cilant Lîs, providing you with camping supplies. Calisca strongly recommends not to rest here, and doing so will leave you alone with Heodan.


 * When you exit the ruins and become unconscious, you wake up only to find Heodan killed by the event with the machine.


 * An additonal advantage of this would be that both points of view – my preferred one, the Watcher, and your preferred one, "you" – can be used, making the biography section something more encyclopedia like, while addressing the player/reader personally in the interactions section. Interactions.


 * This also serves as an example for my understanding of linking/over-linking: It's often said and guidelined to use an internal link only for its first appearance in an article. I think, everything may be linked with its first appearance in every section and the infobox as well. The IB should be considered as a separate unit on a page, often used solely for the wanted information, without any look into the page's further text. Other people ignore the IB, reading the article itself instead. And if there are multiple sections, that can be jumped to by the table of contents, one misses this first appearance link if e.g. the encampment is only linked in the biography (or introduction), but no more in the section they are reading currently.
 * By the way, using "biography" instead of "background" would distinguish us here from two of my fave wikis, making us special. ;o) -- UserCCCSig.png  -- You talkin' to me? -- cCContributions -- 10:06, 18 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Hm, that might work. But Heodan is a bit atypical, in that the Watcher will always meet him, and his fate is sealed no matter what happens. How will we handle all the side-quest NPCs (such as Lumdala) whom the Watcher might never even meet if the player isn't thorough, and where we don't know what happens to them in that cases? Or NPCs (such as Raedric) whose paths can diverge significantly based on the player's choices? (PS: I also agree that the "Biography" section should be written in more of an encyclopedia style than the "Interactions" section, and that it's sensible to turn the first occurrence of each name in every section into a link.) --Ineth2 (talk) 10:05, 19 February 2017 (UTC)


 * This is a small note, but in the NPC infobox there is currently a long Biography and appearance title. It makes more sense to cut this down to Biography, as there isn't really information about the NPC's appearance, which can be viewed from the screenshot anyhow. Pangaearocks (talk) 15:45, 20 August 2017 (UTC)